Electronic Scoring System

[Robert de Bondt]

Does anybody know what happened to the Danish Electronic Scoring System that was used during the Danish Indoor Championships in 1996.

It showed great promise and used laser beams and two computers to tell the position within 1/10th mm. They use similar systems for pistol shooting at the Olympics, so why not archery?

[Colin]

It was made by the guy who makes the danarge targets. I found it on his web site once. looked good.

www.danage.dk

[mbomike]

Iche bein gut iffen ien speichen Norce :o

[grantwomack]

Couldn't you have written that in English just the same? :D
I think it would be a good idea to get electronic scoring that automatically uploads to a server and scores are automatically updated on the scoreboard so that the leaderboard is continually up to date. How long will it be before THAT happens??? :lol:

[mbomike]

The translation I will leave up to you ( give Harald a call for help)

The auto scoring would be fantastic, expensive but fantastic none the less.
However there will be the element of doubt from just about all archers, hence a physicical (typo, I'm drunk) visual of the target would be emphasized :(
Hence negating the use of electronic scoring.


PS. Was thinking of some type of electronic scoring system for 3DAAA comps. Gave up after 3 mins, when the costings of transmitters for each target was thought of :o

[Harald]

Sorry could not find any thing bout electronic scoring on the danage page
Tried searc altavista with no great success.

Know it's being used in rifle shooting some places here and will try to check out some more and if it could also be used with arrows.
(Think it's quite expensive)

A link from first post on this thread might give some info on a norw firm Kongsberg V

[arngeir]

i read apabout it for many years ago
i think the reason for no one have heard of them is that was way to expensive around 8000 us dollar
it was built aroun laser coordinates that crossed the target in x and z direktions, so when an arow hit the target and breaks a laser the computer calculated it whithin a sekund

[Malko]

?? I understand the laser breaking thing for a bullet, because the bullet breaks the lazer for a millisecond and then is gone.

But arrows?? they stay in the target so the laser stays cut till the last arrow of the end..
if the arrows come in a L position, the laser will not see the corner one. Do I understand this right ?

o
o o

if red is third arrow, then it will not be seen by lasers ??

[Malko]

or for a robin hood :D
how does the laser handle that ?

[recurve boy]

But arrows?? they stay in the target so the laser stays cut till the last arrow of the end..
if the arrows come in a L position, the laser will not see the corner one. Do I understand this right ?

You're assuming that they arrange 2 arrays of lasers perpendicular to each other and map the target in Cartesian coords.

I would have used polar coords myself and arranged the lasers in a circle. There would still be the above problem, but I believe the likelyhood of this occuring would be greatly reduced.

But how would one get the density of lasers high enough to actually pull this off?

[Marcus]

I will talk to a sensor compay I do work for and see what they say.
My guess is that cameras would work better as a computer could scan the image from the camera and determine the result from there. This system is used in manufacturing etc and i quite accurate

[tony60x]

During the space project the americans spent millions developing a pen that could write in the low gravity and vacuumm of space - hence the Fischer Space pen was developed.

The Russians used a pencil.

Sometimes there is a very good low tech solution to a high tech problem.

[Marcus]

My dad has a book called the Grey Goose Wing which is on the history of archery. There is a cartoon in there of these guys who's job was to stand next to the target and point to where the arrows impacted. Quite a few were shot.

[robbo]

During the space project the americans spent millions developing a pen that could write in the low gravity and vacuumm of space - hence the Fischer Space pen was developed.

The Russians used a pencil.

Sometimes there is a very good low tech solution to a high tech problem.


Very true. :D

[robbo]

My dad has a book called the Grey Goose Wing which is on the history of archery. There is a cartoon in there of these guys who's job was to stand next to the target and point to where the arrows impacted. Quite a few were shot.


Not putting my hand up for that job. :silly:

[Flame]

Were the arrows that hit the arrow markers recorded as a miss or a hit :D

[robbo]

Only if they were standing in front of the target. :D

[GrahameA]

I know this is slightly off topic - well a long way really but so be it.

If you are interested in Archery read the Grey Goose Wing by E.G.Heath. This is probably the definitive book on Archery history and a mighty book.

On comment would be to remeber that thie book was written before the raising of the Mary Rose so the author did not have access to original longbows.

WRT electronic scoring - is it really worth the effort? It is not so much a question of doing it but more of a question of the return. And it changes the sport. If things are being electronically scored does the archer have to still go down and check the arrows? That act does have some effect on pulse rate etc. If there is no requirement to walk the distance and then shoot agian what affect will that have on the archers ability to shoot a better score?

Regards
Grahame

[grantwomack]

I think an electronic scoring system like this won't work properly. The main problem would be getting a flat enough target face to use lasers to determine where the arrows actually are. Marcus' idea of using an image of the target to determine the arrow's value sounds good but there would still be speculation as to the validity of the claim. Just the same way tennis players argue with the line-beepers! :D

[Marcus]

No big deal, it would only be used for unofficial results, a way of getting spectators scores quickly.

[grantwomack]

Fair enough. I could see it working with the possibility of alteration of the score by the judges. Let me know when you've got it designed, Marcus! ;)

[Malko]

Better be careful not to shoot the camera though..

[tony60x]

does the archer still hae to walk down - yes = to get the arrows. Bullets are not reusable so there is never a need to stop the shooting etc - we shoot ends so we can go get our arrows. else need vbig quiver. Good for easton - hey maybe thats who'll bring it out.

As for spectators - use a spotting scope and for the close ones just say we dont know - adds more susspense.

cheers

[Harald]

HI
Appears that automaticc target score system made in Norway
is based on having 3-4 sound sensors in each corner (around) the target
in some kinda resonance box. From the sound of the bullet penetrating the targetface, exstreamly accurate position is determined based upon the small diff in when the sound hits the different sensors.
The system is calibrated and works very well in practise according to a friend and college who's using it regurlarly for practise. (Great moose hunter (rifle)) Very friendly to the public who can get the results on screen instantly after each shot.

Sound sensors talks to a black box for each target which again talks to a main pc server. (Can serve more thn 20 targets at least.
Different models are avalable
www.kme.no... Only in norwlanguage Im afraid
:bday:

[Colin]

http://www.kme.no/english/

[Harald]

http://www.kme.no/landsskytterstevnet/landsskytterstevnet.asp

Link showing pictures giving ideas of what the system might give you regarding the spectator information....

and yes Norway is quite nice sometimes during the summer.... :bday:

[DANAGE of Scandinavia]

The Electronic Scoring - or the Instant Scoring System for Archery - was developed in 1992 (1. version) and the system was displayed in Las Vegas U.S.A., in France and in U.K. - and used for some tournaments in Denmark. The next version was ready in 1996 and used for the Danish Championship and some other tournaments in 1996 and 1997.

The system is very expensive and the main purpose was to show the "archery world" that it is possible to have a set-up that will show the scoring within approx. 3/4 of a second -and do it automatically. It will also "ask for a judge" in a situation where the arrow is on the line.

The system was developed with support from Easton, U.S.A., Wales Archery, U.K., DANAGE of Scandinavia and the Danish Government (development funds) - the total cost was approx. US$ 120,000.00.

OK, the cost of the next version will be something like US $ 4,000.00.

[Sesco_c]

I am an Electrical engineering student in the US. I always have side projects going on at home. One of them is just this.

My original design was a digital dartboard modified to a 10 ring. This has many problems. Very unreliable, cannot track arrow placement except point value. Also durability is a large issue. Although a cheep solution.

Next, ether a laser of sonar sensors in the x and y direction, plotting in the Cartesian plane. This has already been established, an L shape is a problem. Also correct placement of the target itself is crucial.

The next design was a laser that rotated 360 deg around the target. Feeding a photo-resistor, which plotted all scores in polar coordinates, and kept a running real time total? Problem being if an entire 360deg circle of arrows encompassed an arrow. Also correct placement of the target itself is crucial.

Each of the above set ups costing no more than $30.00 (US) per target.

My last idea (also already discussed here) was to use image referencing. Taking picture of the target and feeding to NI PCI-1408 image acquisition software. This software is accurate enough to measure pupil size. Which is way more accurate than any human can do. Measuring a line break is trivial. With some fine tuning, I am sure robin hoods can also be accounted for. Although this technology is still very expensive (out of my price range to test at home) with the cost of one computer (expensive, yet not outrageous $$), practically an infinite amount of targets can be tracked, in real time. With one camera (with the accuracy needed) per target the price raises quickly.

So in my opinion at this time it is very much possible but not yet practical.