"My gear is the best!!!"

[James Park]

Why are archers so strongly biased towards whichever make of gear they happen to be using?
For example, I am sure you can think of an archer who is so strongly in favour of a Hoyt/PSE/Mathews/etc that it hurts. No other make of bow even gets to be near as good. Same exactly with arrows, etc.
It cannot be that one make is so superior to all the others - for sure, Clint could shoot World Records with most of them (he has done so equally well with Hoyt and PSE), and Zoran has won National Championships with several makes (Hoyt and Mathews) as well.
I have a few ideas, but what do you think?

[2Dogs]

Someone shoot OD, and then we can disect his brain and find out.............................if he has one. :wink:

Something to do with low self esteem?.....or an attention seeking exercise?

[Gone]

Small penises.

[Clare Barnes]

Small penises.

With brains to match? :D

[Gone]

Dissect olddog and we'll see...

[Bruce]

I think that a lot of archers have to think that there gear is the best its all about confidence and self assurance .In my opinion

[Marcus]

Actually I think this has nothing to do with archery, but about Purchase Justification.
I see it with computers all the time, Mac users insist that macs are best, PC users the same. Often evn when presented with a counter arguement they persist instead of telling the truth which often is "Because I felt like it".
Cars are the same. Stereos. Cookware. Whitegoods. Games consoles. Etc etc. Basically I think no one wants to think they bought the wrong thing. No one likes to say "Yeah, I could have bought a $200 cheaper item and got the same results".
This works the other way as well, how often do we hear "You don't shoot any better with a $1600 bow". Justifying their cheaper bow purchase.

[James Park]

I agree with Marcus. It seems to me that after we have spent our hard-earned bikkies on a nice new flashy bow/car/pc/phone/etc, we need to keep convincing ourselves that we had profound wisdom in making the decision. Hence, if anyone challenges what we did (by suggesting that something else may have been better), we then instinctively feel compelled to defend what we did to the death.
For example, how many Ford drivers would dare to say that a GM car was at all drivable? (Personally, I drive a BM, and all the rest are worthless pieces of rusted scrap metal, and I am certainly not in the slightest bit biassed!!!!).

[Leighton]

I agree with Jim and Marcus. Its especially the case when we find out that the product we've bought is actually inferior in some way to a cheaper product, or if the product we've bought is cheaper somewhere else.

[The One]

I think that it is just because we would rather have the best stuff - it's all about who has the best stuff. We would rather think that our gear is quality, and there are two easy ways to convince yourself of this - praise your own equipment, and degrade other people's! I'd like to think that I don't fall victim to this - I know that while my equipment is good, and more than adequate of shooting great scores, there is some equipment out there that is better. I would only degrade other equipment if I truly thought that it was inadequate. I used to use Macs, and knew how crap they were, and since moving to PCs, I know that PCs are a lot better, though I keep things in perspective, as Macs were generally easier to use. I much prefer AppleWorks as a word processor to word - word ends up trying to do too much for you, and does the wrong thing and gets in the way. Too smart for its own good!

[Marcus]

I'd like to think that I don't fall victim to this
<cough>ACEs vs Triples</cough>

I used to use Macs, and knew how crap they were, and since moving to PCs, I know that PCs are a lot better, Yeah Memory Leaks are great! ;)

[The One]

I'd like to think that I don't fall victim to this
<cough>ACEs vs Triples</cough>

Marcus, what I say in the ACE vs Triples thread, I completely believe. You keep painting me as someone who knows not what they are talking about.

You say "Don't judge the Triples till you have shot them". I have shot them.

I did intially state that "It is not, however, the arrow range that I dislike Cartel for".

I haven't gone blindly at the discussion - I have understood their good aspects as well - their price, their well-matched sets, and while I have poked fun at your exageration of the difference in drift, I do agree, that being heavier and thinner than ACEs will cause less drift. I also stated that my reasonings were more based on recurve shooting, rather that compound.

In formulating my opinions, I have identified both the good and bad aspects of the arrow, before stating my opinion. And my opinion is just that - MY opinion. Doubtless some will have their different opinions, but I did not make my judgement in a biased manner. While I did degrade Cartel for their shameless duplication of other companies' products, I stand by my statement that "I would only degrade other equipment if I truly thought that it was inadequate". I was not saying that Cartel Triples were bad arrows, merely that I, personally, believe that ACEs were a better choice, if you have the money to spend on them

Andrew

[Marcus]

See my reply in the ACE thread. My speculation that you had not used Triples is based on you not knowing they had an alloy core. I think that is reasonable.

Never said you didn't know what you are talking about, I assume that all opinions are based on facts. However I have yet to meet ANYONE who has ever managed to find all the facts (myself included) and thus think debating an issue is healthy. Quite happy to be aware that both patries may be right (or wrong) in that, but unless debated we possibly never will know.
Quite happy to admit defeat if need be.

[The One]

See my reply in the ACE thread. My speculation that you had not used Triples is based on you not knowing they had an alloy core. I think that is reasonable.

Granted - didn't actually own them, but borrowed a set a shot them for a little bit.

Yeah, debating things is healthy. We'll call it a draw :wink:

[Gone]

Yeah Memory Leaks are great! ;)

Memory leaks are purely a software issue, and as such, are platform independant.

[Marcus]

Unless the software running that platform is having the issue, hense why many NT servers need restarting every 6 weeks. ;)

[Gone]

Unless the software running that platform is having the issue, hense why many NT servers need restarting every 6 weeks. ;)

http://www.macwrite.com/criticalmass/mac-os-x-memory-leaks-pf.php

I'll leave it alone now :D

[Axilla]

Definitely Purchase Justification.

We chose and bought it, so we promote and defend our choices.

If one is not fanatically brand-loyal, choosing anything (bows, electrical, etc.) involves much research to find out the pros and cons of an article.

Once we own said article, it has to be cited as the best to defend our choice.

BTW, James, you have only a Bavarian Motor? Didn't go for the Works? :D

Moot point anyway, as those who know own Subarus :wink:

[Kuru]

And nobody has said because some people get their bows and such for free and therefor obligated to push brands ?

[Kuru]

btw all clubs should buy heaps of TMJ Paper faces, and while your out on the field course nothing is as comfy as wearing a pair of hi tec boots for that sturdy feeling, don't forget to buy the latest edition on ITM mag to read while your waiting for your next shot, and if you don't have a good day in the office drop by dnet. Once you get home examine your gear, especially your timing then dump that stock crappy string and order a wonderful set of GAS Bowstrings :D

P.S Mitsubishi hold more world rally championships then anyone else :D
Just ask shermo :lol:

[The One]

Hey, if I owned an archer company Kuru, I'd hire you for that sales pitch!

[2Dogs]

hense why many NT servers need restarting every 6 weeks

NT?......you studying ancient history :wink:

[rooster]

BTW, James, you have only a Bavarian Motor? Didn't go for the Works? NO a Bloody Merc :wink:

[Clare Barnes]

Moot point anyway, as those who know own Subarus :wink:

And those who know best own a Forester! :D

[rooster]

Brumby utes rule :wink:

[rooster]

Moot point anyway, as those who know own Subarus :wink:

And those who know best own a Forester! :D
And is that with a turbo Clare? :wink:

[James Park]

BTW, James, you have only a Bavarian Motor? Didn't go for the Works? NO a Bloody Merc :wink:
No, not keen on Mercs. No, didn't get the Works, just sit there and look at the Motor (I am an engineer, you know).

[Flame]

Moot point anyway, as those who know own Subarus :wink:

And those who know best own a Forester! :D

Roads a bit rough in Adelaide Clare :D

[Ozzy]

Moot point anyway, as those who know own Subarus :wink:

And those who know best own a Forester! :D

Roads a bit rough in Adelaide Clare :D

Although Clare does live in Toorak Gardens, it's not quite in the
"Toorak Tractor" league is it ? :-? :roll:
I mean no shiny new Bull Bars /Side Steps/Roof rack/Fishing Rod holders. :-?
A bit "woossie"girly 4WD really Clare Bear. :wink:

[Clare Barnes]

Although Clare does live in Toorak Gardens, it's not quite in the "Toorak Tractor" league is it ? :-? :roll:

And that is one of the best things about a Forester! :P :roll:

[2Dogs]

Another point of view. filthy rich cotton Client came in today and we got talking cars, and how they depreciate.

He said the worst cars he's owned for depreciation are Mercedes Benz. He said he bought one new for $120 000 and two years later went to trade it and they only offered him $80000 .....with 30 000 km on the clock.

I said "Yeah.....I hear where your coming from"........:rofl:

[James Park]

Yes, that is how it works. If you buy something expensive you need to accept that the depreciation in absolute terms will probably be greater (but possibly less in percentage terms).
For example, what is an $1800 Hoyt worth second hand? What is the depreciation on a $400 Nova? Probably will show that it is an absolute imperative, financially speaking, that we should all shoot Nova's. But will we? Probably not. Exactly the same with BM's and Hyundai's - am i going to drive an Hyundai Excel instead of a BM when the depreciation on the BM is probably greater than the cost of a new Hyundai? Probably not.
In percentage terms, $80k vs $120k on the Merc is probably less depreciation, percentage-wise than for a Ford/GM/etc. (I do note, however, that Merc's do quite poorly on resale compared to other cars of similar class).
It often all gets back to something like "I simply want one, and I will find some way to justify my selection to myself, and to defend it to the death with others".

[Peter King]

It gets even easier when you go to the motor show and ask the Mercedes spruiker, "What do you have that competes with the M3?" and he has to say "Nothing"!
This is not rationalising...this is truth. :lol:

[mike]

Ford Sucks!!! (cos I own a Holden)

Anyway, if you wan't decent car, just buy a Maybach - simple!

[Barracuda]

There are a couple of other things to take into account (didn't read the first couple of pages so forgive me if I'm reiterating anything). If you trade in a good Euro car within 18 months to 2 years and have kept it under say 45k on the clock, you can nearly guarantee as a percentage it won't depreciated the way a 2yr old Commodore, Falcon or Toyota will have. My main point though is that there is an opportunity cost involved. What cost the opportunity to drive around in your very well appointed, super comfortable, safe and much admired motor that you take great pride in as opposed to what some may call a Holden or Ford clunker? Same with archery equipment. The feel of a good riser and limbs, top arrows and will be significantly superior to the brands that you're paying 50% less for. Comes down to you only get what you pay for. Want the good gear and something to take a bit of pride in, get ready to fork out some extra folding!

[Axilla]

A bit "woossie"girly 4WD really Clare Bear. :wink:

Hmmm...... might have to reconsider that, Ozz, old boy.

I have a current model Forester Turbo (with shiny bullbar) with WRX-like performance.

Ask Rooster about the flights he's been on, in it :wink:

[Harald]

Still a diff between cars and bows....
the car might fysically bring you somewhere...., the bow certaily brings you further mentally if used correctly.. what gives the most value might be answered by your friendly neighbouring shaman....
(**** off the topic again.... as usual)

[Eolla]

Hi all, different strokes for different folks, theres your answer. Some people swear by equpiment because it just FEELS right to them. The car adage is a good one I like Fords beacause, to me, they feel better than Holdens. I shoot a Yamaha because, to me, it feels better than the Hoyt. I've shot everything from a TD4 to a Nishizawa, but the instant I picked up an Eolla-Bingo. It just gelled. Biggest dissapointment for me (and probably Hoyt) was the Radian I bought, damn thing was good for shooting 50's (5 10's and a miss!!!) , biggest surprise - shooting an 1100 mens fita with a 66' YTSL2 I was tuning for a Junior.

Find YOUR right combination and stick with it. I wonder how the AIS archers go with contracted equipment..........

[goldeverytime]

if u have been in a rs200 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds u woldent b sayin that about fords(i have my uncle owns one and is bloooooooody fast)

[Clare Barnes]

I wonder how the AIS archers go with contracted equipment..........

It is not a problem. Some of the AIS archers are sponsored by equipment manufacturers of their choice and are therefore provided with equipment by those companies. The non-sponsored archers use their own gear, or may be offered the loan of the equipment currently being provided by the AIS.

[Marcus]

AIS archers are like all top archers, they don't shoot it unless they trust in it.

[Eolla]

Many thanks for the insight. I was at a Rick McKinney seminar a few years ago and asked him why he switched to hoyt, His reply was Corporate sponsorship obligations. I then asked him why half way through the Worlds one year he swapped back to his Yamaha. He said I was shooting bad I prefer the Yamaha and because I was not on the leader board I thought no-one would notice. I seem to recall Simon shooting a Nishizawa at the Olympics one year which went down like a fart in a spacesuit apparantely

[Kuru]

if u have been in a rs200 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds u woldent b sayin that about fords(i have my uncle owns one and is bloooooooody fast)

And for 16 k you can buy a Suzuki hayabusa which does 0-320ks in 3 seconds. Moral of the story ? You want power, it ain't gonna happen with 4 wheels.

[Antoine]

hum, quick rectification, if you want power you will need many wheels, four is good, but a train will beat it easily. :p

now if you want a good power-weigth ratio, you need definitely need a motorbike :-)
I have a VTR 1000 (120hp, 190kg) and it can do 0-100kms in 4s, the Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa does it in less than 3s, but will probably need about 10s to get to 320 however..

for info, i think F1 do 0-100kms in 2.0-2.5s, are you sure about "rs200 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds " (i don't know the car though, sounds nice)

bikes are just too good at acceleration.. and thats were you get the thrill.
(Top speed is interesting, but doesn't bring as many sensations)
You have to love the french highways for that :-)

[MerlinApexDylan]

Actually I think this has nothing to do with archery, but about Purchase Justification.
I see it with computers all the time, Mac users insist that macs are best, PC users the same. Often evn when presented with a counter arguement they persist instead of telling the truth which often is "Because I felt like it".
Cars are the same. Stereos. Cookware. Whitegoods. Games consoles. Etc etc. Basically I think no one wants to think they bought the wrong thing. No one likes to say "Yeah, I could have bought a $200 cheaper item and got the same results".
This works the other way as well, how often do we hear "You don't shoot any better with a $1600 bow". Justifying their cheaper bow purchase.

I just wanna say that sometime. Because I felt like it. I bought my Merlin Quest 35 "because I felt like it". Plus I think there company is great. But I used to shoot PSE and I thought their bows were great.. there are alot of great bows out there. :lol:

Some I bought and really shouldn't have.. recurve wise. Maybe I should have just stuck to compound. But then there is that whole pesky Olympics thing. I should question myself on why I want to go to the Olympics and if archery is the right sport to be choosing for my goal? hmmm :-?

[goldeverytime]

RS200=group b rally car 600BHP ferarri V6(5.5litre)and whiegs about 800KG someone work out bhp/tonne and lets compare bhp/tonne to a bike
0X 0X

[OldDog]

AAA fuel rail, 5,800 hp.
standing 1/4 mile in 4.5 seconds. Zero to 100 mph in 1 second.
fit that sucker into the equation somewhere. :o

[alexvpaq]

people who are buying are wooden bow will be able to shot a great score but with a 1500$ bow with all the stuff you need... you will shot better
BUT is it just in your head or the equipment really help??

[This message was sended by a stupid Optima customer]
lol[seems that you might have a 2000$ dollar bow you still need the "technik"
look at those people with those bow who are still doing bad score...]

[alexvpaq]

look like il never try to be a psychologist... no one never answer to what i said...! lol!

[Marcus]

no it's not in your head.
I see so many people buy cheaper gear because "I'm not good enough for the high end stuff yet" or put off buying gear with "When I shoot 1300 I'll buy them" without realising that those points lost may be due to inferiour gear.

Recurve Bows
First mistake I see people make is using old limbs. The riser only needs to be straight, but the limbs need to be straight AND consistant, and the last one you simply can't test.
When you have something made of laminations under stress it will fatigue. I personally would replace my limbs every 18-24 months at the longest. Having shot laminated compound limbs I learnt how important that was.
Fact is limbs wear.
Another factor is design. Limbs today are much faster and better designed than the limbs of only 10 years ago. Archers can shoot heavier for longer.
If you are using limbs 5+ years old do yourself a favour and buy a new pair. You will notice the difference.

Compound Bows
A compound bow's beauty is in it's design, and it's the details rather than the whole that seperate them.
Compare the PSE Nova to the AR34. Same maker, but different ends of the scales.
Riser
The Nova is just a straight machined riser. No flair. The AR has been designed around removing vibration. This helps the archer shoot longer and easier.
The grip on the nova is a large plastic grip, while the AR has an excellentthin grip. For the beginner it will be easier for them to get the correct grip wth the AR.

Pockets
Key area. The Nova has set pockets that the limbs move in and out of. In order to get free movement they move inside of the pocket. The possibility of them moving between shots is possible.
The AR uses moving pockets with the limbs fixed in place. This is far more consistant and prevents limb movement.

Cams
Another key. The Nova uses twin cams which requires attention from often inexperianced shooters to work correctly. The AR single cam is easy for beginners to use because it works the same everytime.
Also the zero nock travel on the AR makes tuning quick and easy. Also important for beginners.

That's just the bows. MOve into the rest of the gear and it's also important. However when starting archers should always remember the gear may need upgrading soon, hense the beauty of teh Nova etc.

[dbjac]

how bout that little ariel atom tho?

only 4 cylinders (honda cylinders too!) and manages 0-100 in 2.88s

faster than an enzo for like ~80,000AU

mind you i think it peaks at 240km...

Its 300kw in a 456kg car... 8)

it was on beyond tomorrow not long ago

[Archangel]

how bout that little ariel atom tho?

only 4 cylinders (honda cylinders too!) and manages 0-100 in 2.88s

faster than an enzo for like ~80,000AU

mind you i think it peaks at 240km...

Its 300kw in a 456kg car... 8)

it was on beyond tomorrow not long ago
But is there any room in it for the archery gear? :-P

[Bia]

no it's not in your head.
I see so many people buy cheaper gear because "I'm not good enough for the high end stuff yet" or put off buying gear with "When I shoot 1300 I'll buy them" without realising that those points lost may be due to inferiour gear.



Agree... And besides, there

[alexvpaq]

really, paying something like 700$ every 5 year for new limbs...
yeah.... hope it wont do the same thing with the riser!!!

[Marcus]

really, paying something like 700$ every 5 year for new limbs...
yeah.... hope it wont do the same thing with the riser!!!no risers are usually fine.
That's teh price of being competitive. Try motor car racing. ;)

[alexvpaq]

yeah right i didnt think about this ! archery is costful but only to start!
but after its always cool! until anything broke!

[Archangel]

yeah right i didnt think about this ! archery is costful but only to start!
but after its always cool! until anything broke!
There's always something later and greater...

Some people say that there's little difference between gear blah blah, but if you look at the top archers there aren't any shooting anything _really_ old. They're upgrading, even if they wait a few years between.

Anyway, I'd say a pair of limbs every 5 years is sweet as - I'd spend several times more just on arrows over the same period.

[James Park]

shooting anything _really_ old. They're upgrading, even if they wait a few years between.
I am still using a set of X10's I first purchased in 1999 for the AA Nationals. I still have 9 left out of 12 (one broke while I was shooting in strong wind and it hit the target pretty much side-on, I shot one into my garage wall, and I shot one into a metal bar on the target). They are still quite accurate and I would be quite happy to shoot them in a tournament, even though they no longer look particularly great.

[grantwomack]

(...and I shot one into a metal bar on the target).Metal bar on the target? Doesn't sound like a particularly nice target! :o

but if you look at the top archers there aren't any shooting anything _really_ old. They're upgrading, even if they wait a few years between.I'd be willing to guess a lot of this is because the archers get their gear for free or very cheap from sponsors, simply because the sponsors want their newest stuff to be on the line. There must have been at least a little frustration at Hoyt when their top three Australian archers chose to shoot the Axis long after production was stopped.

I did quite like the test Frangilli did with a wooden bow with plastic rest and sight, compared to his usual setup. It certainly showed that better gear does make a difference - if only for a better sight travel...

[Archangel]

shooting anything _really_ old. They're upgrading, even if they wait a few years between.
I am still using a set of X10's I first purchased in 1999 for the AA Nationals. I still have 9 left out of 12 (one broke while I was shooting in strong wind and it hit the target pretty much side-on, I shot one into my garage wall, and I shot one into a metal bar on the target). They are still quite accurate and I would be quite happy to shoot them in a tournament, even though they no longer look particularly great.
I agree, they do last well - my current practise set are *very* aged now and down to only eight or so left. They still seem to shoot fine though.

Funny how easy metal bars are to find too - the ones at my club have very little metal, but an X10 from long range can still locate it rather easily :-)

I'd be willing to guess a lot of this is because the archers get their gear for free or very cheap from sponsors, simply because the sponsors want their newest stuff to be on the line. There must have been at least a little frustration at Hoyt when their top three Australian archers chose to shoot the Axis long after production was stopped.
Yes and no - the very top level are getting it free, but if you come down a cut or two basically everyone is still shooting new gear, and they're not getting it given to them.

I imagine Hoyt might have been a little peeved, but they were probably also quite grateful that they were still shooting Hoyts - gotta keep these things in perspective :-)

[Sandy Hancock]

Moot point anyway, as those who know own Subarus :wink:

And those who know best own a Forester! :D

I *really* like my WRP10. It's my fourth Subaru. The Cartel Triple of performance cars....

[hoyt for life 2]

Cartel Triple of performance cars....

so your saying saburu makes one good car and the rest is a bunch of cheep covers. :D

[The One]

And that you need cling-wrap to make sure the steering wheel doesn't fall off? :lol: 8)

[Archangel]

And that there's something better out there that's the X10 to the Subaru's Triple.

Presumably that would be a 200SX ;-)

[Marcus]

I think GT would be offended his arrows are comparred to a 200SX

[James Park]

Yes, would have to be at least a nice BM.

[Shermo]

Yes, would have to be at least a nice BM.

Well you could compare CXL2's to a Supra :wink:

Can be fast or smooth and subtle :lol:

[Archangel]

Yes, would have to be at least a nice BM.
That's a bit of an oxymoron isn't it? :-P

[Archangel]

I think GT would be offended his arrows are comparred to a 200SX
You mean being nice looking, fast, and much, much better than any of their competitors? I would think he'd be flattered... ;-)

[Ozzy]

Yes, would have to be at least a nice BM.

M3 ? 8)

[andrewf87]

Yes, would have to be at least a nice BM.

M3 ? 8)

Agreed

[Sandy Hancock]

And that there's something better out there that's the X10 to the Subaru's Triple.

Presumably that would be a 200SX ;-)

The Nissan is a nice car to be sure, but probably more analagous to the ACE :wink:
For the X-10 I was thinking more along the lines of Porsche or AMG or M-3, i.e. much more expensive for a little more performance. :-?

[StevenB]

And that there's something better out there that's the X10 to the Subaru's Triple.

Presumably that would be a 200SX ;-)

The Nissan is a nice car to be sure, but probably more analagous to the ACE :wink:
For the X-10 I was thinking more along the lines of Porsche or AMG or M-3, i.e. much more expensive for a little more performance. :-?

no the cartel would be the Nissan GTR, king of the performance cars out of Japan,


the X10 would be an F1 race car, built for a purpose

[Shermo]

So a Bullet or Terminator arrow would be a Datsun 180B :wink:

[Eberbachl]

OMG we've hit an all time low :rofl:

A thread about comparing arrows to cars.

:D

[Ja]

again we've gone off topic, dont stop now :D

[Ja]

whats a humvee then??

[Eberbachl]

That would be an X7 :D

[Shermo]

That would be an X7 :D

2613 :D

[Archangel]

OMG we've hit an all time low :rofl:

A thread about comparing arrows to cars.

:D
Or an all time high - depends on your perspective ;-)

[hoyt for life 2]

the X10 would be an F1 race car, built for a purpose
like one of them big red farari's

[alexvpaq]

and what are the geo metro??? lol funny thing but still thinking what are suppose to be the navigator another lower class ferari? lol

[hoyt for life 2]

and what are the geo metro??? lol funny thing but still thinking what are suppose to be the navigator another lower class ferari? lol
no a navigator would be like this car
http://www.mavromatic.com/images/zap.jpg
cheep and gets 60 miles to the galon :D

[Friar Tuck]

OMG we've hit an all time low :rofl:

A thread about comparing arrows to cars.

:D

I actually disagree - There are alot of similarities

Both have starting points and end points
Both have a terminal velocity
Both have power to weight ratios (although an arrow has an outside influence)
Both have drag coefficients
Both have price points for performance
Both can be extremely frustrating
Everyone swears by different ones

I am sure there is more to it
:o

[rabbitz]

Both have power to weight ratios (although an arrow has an outside influence)

And vehicles dont? - How about fuel & driver attitude?????? :)

Rabz

I'm still amazed the thread got to this point....

[Archangel]

And vehicles dont? - How about fuel & driver attitude?????? :)
Nah, both of those are inside the car... ;-)

[Jay.G]

Wonder what the Cartel triple should be compared with, lol a ferari with electric engines :P Subarus you dont give triples enough credit! :lol:

[Archangel]

Wonder what the Cartel triple should be compared with, lol a ferari with electric engines :P Subarus you dont give triples enough credit! :lol:
Is that meant to be the offspring of a 360 and a Prius or something??

[Jay.G]

lol maybe maybe... :lol: