Mental problems and Coaching

[Brumbies Country]

During the cricket yesterday Greg Chappell, noted that current tennis number one, Roger Federer, doesn't have a coach, and in reply to a question felt, that in sport he felt that reliance on coaching was perhaps over done today, in so much as many problems are mental. He looked back on his own form slump (Something of the order of five test ducks in a row) and reckoned the solving of it lay in the mental area.

Just wondered what people on this forum feel. It seems good coaching is essential to the establishment of good form. However depending on geographic location, not everybody has access to archery coaching and one hears of good archers emerging despite the lack of much coaching. On the other hand obviously a system like the AIS one is absolutely coach driven.

I guess my question is, can we become too dependent on coaching? Can mental toughness and the ability to think through problems act in some way to compensate if a coach is not readily available. Perhaps there is room for a happy medium?

[Marcus]

I think you have to pick a good coach who understands the mental side. I spent time with the kids I coach before their National titles to make sure they know what to expect mentally. They were keyed in right and had few suprizes. The result was 5 Gold and a silver between 2 of them.

My coach also values that side as well at the others and works with me on that. It's helped out my form as well because I am getting the whole package better, not just one aspect.

You also get coaches who put too much emphasis on gear as well and the results there can be even worse.

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Marcus. Certainly a combination of the technical with good mental preparation sounds like the ideal combination if it can be given.

[Marcus]

IMHO what indicates a good coach

* Someone who can answer technical questions well
* Someone who places technique high on their list, yet is willing to learn new techniques (not stuck in their ways)
* Someone who mentors you on the mental side and cn help you out there when things are not working
* They don't have to be the best, but should be decent and should be activly competitive. (ie if your coach does not or has never been to a major competition, stay away)
* Works with other coaches and not against them
* Someone who does not change your gear all the time. Top shooters tend not to be tinkerers yet are highly skilled with their gear.

[The One]

Who says that Roger Federer can't yet improve? I think that having a good coach is essential, and that in following instructions, rather than chopping and changing, is where we can truly excel in the mental side of things. Too many archers (myself included) over-analyse things, and it is their downfall. Even having a coach who knows just as much as you, but instructs you on which path to take can take the mental mind-games out of the obstacles in your way.

[Mike13]

I think Roger Federer has engaged the services of Tony Roach for around 2 or 3 weeks at the time of each of the majors so he might feel the need for some advice. The contract is for 10 weeks total in the year.

[The One]

I think you'll find that most top sports-men (and -women) actively seek coaching. Even the best have something to learn!

[mike]

I've never had a coach in archery but have still managed to learn how to shoot at a reasonable level mainly through observation and talking to people like Jim (who has given me coaching advice, but has never been my 'coach')

I think now that it would be pointless for me to be coached unless I had specific goals in mind (other than "win the next tournament") and I don't have any of those at the moment.

As for the mental side, I think it has to be 80% self driven -- that is, through shooting tournaments and doing your own reading on the matter you will form your own conclusions as to what you need work on. Again, thats when you might feel the need to ask someone for advice. Tournament archers are then good people to ask -- just ask what their mental tactics are (especially ask this behind the line at critical moments in tournaments! :D )

Where coaching is critical is in the "formative years" and then that has to be 70 - 80% on technique. It is solid technique that will allow you to dig yourself out of a hole.

Mental toughness comes with experience. However you can be taught some tactics, like breathing and visualisation excercises.

Then there's the whole other side of the mental equation that deals with your 'attitude to the game' -- how you practice, what your outlook is, how well you believe you will perform etc etc...

[Eolla]

Mental coaching helped me in 2 ways, Firstly score consistency I no longer have huge gaps in the scores I shoot, Secondly "Score panic". I had shot every score possibly between 900 and 999 without passing the magical 1000. I shot every 990 several times and 999 at least 3 times. I also shot many big 1000's before shooting 1100. I seemed to be able to long divide and multiply the exact score required per end to reach mile stones and manage to blow it by a couple in the dying stages.

I read a thin book called "The Inner Game of Golf" by an Englishman who wrote the famous "Inner Tennis". Inner Golf teaches you simple tecniques so easy you wonder how that can possibly work. I just substituted the word Golf for Archery when reading. This is a thin book which most libraries have, go get it read it and follow it, it will be the best help you will recieve

[lewkowski]

IMHO what indicates a good coach

* Someone who can answer technical questions well
* Someone who places technique high on their list, yet is willing to learn new techniques (not stuck in their ways)
* Someone who mentors you on the mental side and cn help you out there when things are not working
* They don't have to be the best, but should be decent and should be activly competitive. (ie if your coach does not or has never been to a major competition, stay away)
* Works with other coaches and not against them
* Someone who does not change your gear all the time. Top shooters tend not to be tinkerers yet are highly skilled with their gear.
Can I just add:
* Someone who teaches you how to 'teach yourself'

[hmz91]

I would add also

some one who:
tell you good ideas and let you think that you have thinked first on that good id

[Bia]

Hi...

I

[grantwomack]

A few things I have noticed about archers who don't receive coaching straight away:
- when they don't know what they can think about, they don't fill their mind with often useless clutter and get down to shooting.
- a basic understanding of good form can lead to them developing what works for them and can have surprising (and often great) results.
- much of what we need to know can be learned on this site.
- they aren't mentally prepared for very much pressure when they get to their first tournaments.

After having an intake of some 40 novices to our club at the start of this academic year, we weren't able to give a few of the more immediately competent archers much guidance. We taught everyone safety and a basic good technique but then had to leave several of them to their own devices. Some of them are now shooting 500+ FITA 18's and FITA 25's after only 4 months. Granted there are a fair few who need definite work on their form and the mental side of things.

For high-level competitiveness, I think a coach can really do nothing but guide you towards what they think (or have been taught) is the best. And that is why some coaches are much more successful and get better results than others.

I do agree with Marcus' list but think he should also include "Someone who is willing to deconstruct form before they can reconstruct it with an overall better result." It seems this is a problem with the US coaching scheme - they accept flaws in form and do other things to compensate, rather than moving backward and getting to the base of the problem for an eventual forward result.

[Brumbies Country]

GrantWomack said: "A few things I have noticed about archers who don't receive coaching straight away:
- when they don't know what they can think about, they don't fill their mind with often useless clutter and get down to shooting.
- a basic understanding of good form can lead to them developing what works for them and can have surprising (and often great) results.
- much of what we need to know can be learned on this site.
- they aren't mentally prepared for very much pressure when they get to their first tournaments. "

I guess this was the sort of thing I was thinking of when starting this thread. Our beginners get good coaching but our club resources don't extend to extensive coaching of intermediate archers. The latter still tend to develope OK picking up comments from experienced archers and using resources like this forum.They then may get some good one on one coaching, go through a period of variable scores as they adjust,but still seemingly progress. It developes some independent thinking which can be a positive asset. Ideally if resources permitted, one on one coaching most of the time would be great. Certainly somebody knowledgable watching will pick up the things you thought you got right from other sources. On the other hand is there is a chance of archers becoming too coach dependent?

[G33K]

Ok, haven't posted much (at all) but you gotta start somewhere. I am both and archer and a coach and I have noticed something about female archers. This may be true with male archers but since I am a female I saw it there first.

Some of the girls become very dependant on their coaches attention. They want/need them there all the time telling them something. At a tournament a coach may have several archers shooting and the girls get restless. I have seen quite a few female archers fall apart for basically no good reason. It seems almost like they are more content to be shooting badly but have their coach helping than they would be if they were winning with no coach watching. I have seen it happen but first noticed it in myself. I would be in tournament and I would get all fussy and almost seemed like a wanted to fail. I watched and thought and sorta noticed that part of it was getting my coaches attention. If you want people coach girls they are different than when they coach boys. They reward boys for pushing through, toughing it out, etc but with girls they coddle them when they are doing bad. It is those darn tears!!! I notice myself doing it as well.

I think if you are talking about shooters becoming dependant on coaches it is all about them becoming dependant on attention rather than instruction.

[Brumbies Country]

G33K said: "They reward boys for pushing through, toughing it out, etc but with girls they coddle them when they are doing bad. It is those darn tears!!! I notice myself doing it as well. "


Now I know why I can never get a coach when I need one...they are coddling the girls :lol: . Yeah well what guy worth his salt can resist a woman in tears :roll:. I actually noticed that in a former competitive equestrian life that girls were probably a bit more dependent on coaching than the guys there too.

Good to hear from you all the way from sunny Southern California :lol:

[robbo]

No problem with coaches molly coddling the girls here,



No coaches,............not many female archers either for that matter. :-?

[2Dogs]

but with girls they coddle them when they are doing bad. It is those darn tears!!!

So that's why Professor Park Coaches the Girls! :lol:

Can't really say I've noticed that with coaches before.......mostly because us guys were having too much of a good time down the other end of the line (the end that shoot much higher scores :D)....to notice what the other halfs were doing.

:D

[Brumbies Country]

Robbo said: "No coaches,............not many female archers either for that matter. "

Yes, why is it that there is not a great proportion of female archers here, in NSW anyway? The US college/university system seems to produce plenty. It would be interesting to hear from some of the university clubs here what the gender ratio is. Robbo, I guess the ratio of female archers is fairly low in 3DAAA and ABA?

[G33K]

And I must add that I am referring to Recurve girls. It seems to me that all the compound girls have it together better than any other group of archers. The compound guys have to have everything perfect (always the last group back from the target) Recurve guys are kinda bad, too. Maybe just in America.

Not enough female archer? Come to the Uni that I teach at, 5,400 and 62% female.

[2Dogs]

Not enough female archer? Come to the Uni that I teach at, 5,400 and 62% female

Whhoooooohhoooooo!...................I'm movin :D:D

[G33K]

Actually if you look anything like the avatar then I might suggest just staying where you are at, otherwise......

And they are good little archers too.

[2Dogs]

:rofl:

[Clare Barnes]

Actually if you look anything like the avatar then I might suggest just staying where you are at, otherwise......

Must be the outfit 2Dogs - I'm sure OD said you looked better in the lacey blue one! :D

[G33K]

Actually you would probably be ok no matter what youlook like, US girls have a thing for the Oz accent.

Hmmm, feel a little bit like I am pimping out my students.

[Marcus]

Trust me, even an Aussie accent won't help 2Dogs. :lol:

[G33K]

What if the room was really, really dark??? Ok, really dark and they were drunk?? and slightly hard of hearing and just got out of an all womans prison?

Sorry 2dog, don't even know you but I am feeling ornery today

[2Dogs]

but I am feeling ornery today

What's that?......you said your feeling horney?

:rofl:

[G33K]

Had a real good comeback to that but not sure what you look like so I will pass (especially given Marcus' comment)

[frommy]

Had a real good comeback to that but not sure what you look like so I will pass (especially given Marcus' comment)

I am amazed that a whole hour has passed and no-one has obliged with a picture yet? :roll:

So, who will be first and which of many pictures will it be? 8)

Has Flame been washed away down in drowning Melbourne?

[Flame]

Had a real good comeback to that but not sure what you look like so I will pass (especially given Marcus' comment)

I am amazed that a whole hour has passed and no-one has obliged with a picture yet? :roll:

So, who will be first and which of many pictures will it be? 8)

Has Flame been washed away down in drowning Melbourne?


splash, splash :D

[Flame]

for you frommy

2dogs

http://www.users.on.net/wwwsys/Images/Forum/Marky.jpg

[OldDog]

Goondiwindi pinup girl. :o :D

[2Dogs]

You can Talk!

Turning 50.....was bad for you......very bad :wink:

http://www.users.on.net/~pmalynn/images/Archery/oldnoel2.jpg

[Flame]

**** that is scary :D

[2Dogs]

The Real Me!

In my Younger days of infamy :D

http://www.users.on.net/~pmalynn/images/Archery/Paper.JPG

[OldDog]

You can Talk!

Turning 50.....was bad for you......very bad :wink:

http://www.users.on.net/~pmalynn/images/Archery/oldnoel2.jpg

Mr. december in the centrefold of the goondiwindi roundup. 8)

[Flame]

:rofl:

[robbo]

You can Talk!

Turning 50.....was bad for you......very bad :wink:

http://www.users.on.net/~pmalynn/images/Archery/oldnoel2.jpg

That's scarey. :o

[robbo]

Reminds me of someone. :-?

[Flame]

olddog :D

[robbo]

No I think he reminds me of an archer I once met, I think he shots a mmm................... Oh I forget now. :D

[NOCK HUNTER]

Reminds me of someone. :-?


YODA!!!!!! :D

[robbo]

:rofl:

Needs bigger ears. :D

[robbo]

Sorry Noel. :-?

[Bia]

I was going to post something about girls and coaching (as a girl and coach dependant), but after all those pictures I better stay out of it! :-?

[CMB50]

for you frommy

2dogs

http://www.users.on.net/wwwsys/Images/Forum/Marky.jpg

Argh!!! :o

How did I miss this thread? Infact i wish i never found it now...

New rule.....The above picture is no longer alllowed to be circulated on this forum. For the good of all mankind!

[clever_guy]

"Roger Federer...felt, that in sport he felt that reliance on coaching was perhaps over done today, in so much as many problems are mental."

"Coaching" varies at different levels of an athletes experience, ability and pocket book. Take for instance archery, a top level archer on a well supported national team might have a equipment tuner (like a "coach" who just works on equipment), a form coach, an event team manager and possibly a sports psychologist. Dollars to donuts Federer, just like Lance Armstrong, or Tiger Woods, or the Dallas Cowboys for that matter, have similar resources. I would expect Federer has had a lot of coaching over the years, probably from some top coaches - just like most promising tennis players.

As far as "too dependent on coaching", no, you can't be dependant enough on good coaching. If you are an elite athlete your job is to perform, anything that puts you into a better position to execute top performance, you use. If you are a novice or intermediate archer and you don't have good coaching resources (and assuming you have some ability and dedication) - you are on a much longer, harder path to success. It's not uncommon though for archers to get to a fairly advanced level with limited coaching though - you don't see archers spending the same $$$ training as you would say tennis players - and as such the training resources available for archers is more limited. So you can get talented archers with a lot of potential spinning their wheels, rather than increasing performance over time.

"Mental toughness" - something to keep in mind - a lot of top athletes keep a resource around at events like a certain person/coach/sports psychologist - the role of that person isn't to make them into some sort of "psychological superman", but just to keep them focused and on track at that event. Having an athlete know that someone is in their corner, and having someone to adjust the focus, deal with concern can be very important. Some people can do that mental management themselves, but the majority always do better if have someone in their corner. So are top athletes more "mentally tough" - no. Do they tend to have better mental management skills, which allows them to concentrate better on performance - yes.

-CG

[OldDog]

WTF :o Did they finally let you out of jail. CG. 8)

[clever_guy]

I was pursuing AT from my cell when I saw Marcus had been kicked off AT

[The One]

[quote=clever_guy]I was pursuing AT from my cell when I saw Marcus had been kicked off AT