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Thread: Bareshaft tuning compounds

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    *****istrator Marcus's Avatar
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    Bareshaft tuning compounds

    Seems the current trend in bow tuning is bare shaft tuning compound bows.

    An example is a photo where someone shoots a 10 with the fletched and a left 8 with the bare. The suggestion is often "Arrow spine is too stiff add point weight"

    Now its easy to dismiss these things so I always like to test them.

    My thing with tuning tests are this.

    Can I repeat it?
    Can I do it backwards?

    For example will an arrow with a stiff spine do the same thing?. Will a weak spine arrow do the opposite? Will I see a result if I follow the instructions? Will I see a different result if I do the opposite?

    So test
    "Shoot 4 different arrow setups. 3 of different spine and one with a different point weight"
    "Don't change the bow"
    "Will a stiff arrow impact left and a weak arrow impact right?"
    "Will change of point weight change impact position of bare shaft horizontally?"

    Base point. Arrow is 400 spine. 120gr point. Shot from 54lb Prime STX 36
    Arrow impacts left of group
    Name:  IMG_5059.JPG
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    Test 2. CX Nano Pro 500. 120gr point. Arrow lands much further left of group.
    Name:  IMG_5060.JPG
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Size:  105.3 KB

    Test 3: CX X-Jammer 27. 290 spine 210gr point. Arrow lands a little more left of group than 400 spine but not as far left as 500 spine.
    Name:  FullSizeRender 2.jpg
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Size:  105.9 KB

    Test 4: CX X-Jammer 27. 290 spine 295gr point. Arrow lands same distance away from fletched arrow as with a 210gr point
    Name:  FullSizeRender.jpg
Views: 406
Size:  103.2 KB

    Conclusion
    Left impact does not indicate spine of the arrow. The impact pattern was
    500........290...400

    The change of point weight had not bearing on left-right impact.

    Bareshaft tuning seems to be an unreliable method of determining if your compound arrow spine is correct.
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  2. #2
    Grand Master Bowman Ozzy's Avatar
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    Always believed bare shaft testing to establish arrow spine with a compound is non productive due to, unlike a Recurve, a compound shooting through the centre.
    So many of us happily select a shaft spine that is a size up from what charts suggest, don't we ?
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    Grand Master Bowman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
    happily select a shaft spine that is a size up from what charts suggest,
    That is quite conservative Ozzy.
    I would quite happily go two or three sizes (or more) (or lighter).
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    *****istrator Marcus's Avatar
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    I'll do some photos later. However one thing I noticed playing around yesterday was the direction the release hook worked made a big difference too.
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    Grand Master Bowman Ozzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Park View Post
    That is quite conservative Ozzy.
    I would quite happily go two or three sizes (or more) (or lighter).
    & as would I & indeed have, James.
    Recurve perhaps another story though
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    Grand Master Bowman Ozzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    I'll do some photos later. However one thing I noticed playing around yesterday was the direction the release hook worked made a big difference too.
    Aha ! Now that would be of interest to see
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    digitus impudicus
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    People do get some weird ideas.

    The best part about multiple forums on the internet is that you can go to one forum where they're arguing for 13 pages that "arrows have to be the right spine to group" and with two mouse clicks you can be looking at pictures on a different forum, of tightly groups arrows of different spines, all shot through the same bow in a shooting machine.

    People react to contradictions to things that they believe in different ways.
    They accept that the rules are wrong, or they defend what they want to believe is correct.

    Personally, I've seen that more than a few things in archery that are general rules turn out to be only correct some of the time and ignored when they don't work, or explained away as something else.

    Witness the people who go berserk part way through a recurve tuning process because they can't get fletched and unfletched arrows to obtain a desired relationship, yet don't actually check to see if their arrows are falling vertically through their sight plane.

    By far the most important thing to do is to establish that a rule works backwards as Marcus has done.

    IF A = B, then also B = A.

    If one archer can't get a rule that you've lived by to work the same way for him, how good is your rule?

    If one archer can't get a rule to play out, that a thousand other archers live by, is the rule reliable?

    Depends on what you want to believe.
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    Grand Master Bowman
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    I like the sort of testing that Marcus has done.
    It is trying to use a good scientific process rather than ad hoc gossip.
    I very much fits in with what I like to see.
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    Personally I have found most tuning is an absolute waste of time like paper tuning, great to see this from Marcus which clearly shows people that it truly is wasting there time which could be better spent improving form.

    I would however like to know what is valid for tuning compounds
    I don't spend much time on any of it,
    I do set my cam timing,
    Cam lean which on my bow is done by measuring across the diagonals from axle to axle so not hard - don't even need a press, I do check this in a draw board at full draw,
    Eye ball nock point and center shot
    After that I am just adjusting draw and Dloop for best feel on draw length.

    The one thing I tend to spend a bit of time on is weight distribution around my Stabilisers.

    Is there any magic dust technique that would make my bow shoot any better, I think it shoots about as good as it's going to get, but as you can see I don't really tune my bow at all??
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    I don't think Marcus dismissed bareshaft tuning altogether. Just stated that it cannot be used to determine proper spine on a compound. This is pretty much common knowledge.
    I find bareshaft tuning very helpful in determining proper arrow flight. It does require a degree of consistency from the archer and can show technique faults just as much as bow tune. IMO it is a very useful tuning tool.
    Of course as with all types of tuning there comes a time when someone has to stop tuning and start training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    I'll do some photos later. However one thing I noticed playing around yesterday was the direction the release hook worked made a big difference too.
    Can you go into more detail on your findings testing the release hook direction Marcus ?
    Last edited by flashman; 6th February 2017 at 01:04 AM.

  12. #12
    *****istrator Marcus's Avatar
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    Yeah I will, I had to get back to work before I could do it properly. Will be a few weeks till I can do it again.
    Quote Originally Posted by flashman View Post
    Can you go into more detail on your findings testing the release hook direction Marcus ?
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  13. #13
    digitus impudicus
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    Quote Originally Posted by taz00 View Post
    Of course as with all types of tuning there comes a time when someone has to stop tuning and start training.
    How dare you suggest that!

    Internet forums suggest to me that with enough tuning, my bow will become so forgiving that I can stay home and it will win the tournament for me.

    I just need to tweak things to get to this stage. It's probably because of the reluctance of manufacturers to make my custom 163.27 grain dimple patterned points.
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  14. #14
    Learning the Ropes Wobbler's Avatar
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    Just use gravel to dimple your points like everyone else does. Especially effective on field points.

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    The Dudley walk back should be an obvious inclusion into your tuning - effectively setting center shot for various lengths so that horizonal impact doesn't vary.

    Some people may argue arrow node to blade rest relationship to counteract possiblity of torque, however I've found people with differring viewpoints on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoot View Post
    Personally I have found most tuning is an absolute waste of time like paper tuning, great to see this from Marcus which clearly shows people that it truly is wasting there time which could be better spent improving form.

    I would however like to know what is valid for tuning compounds
    I don't spend much time on any of it,
    I do set my cam timing,
    Cam lean which on my bow is done by measuring across the diagonals from axle to axle so not hard - don't even need a press, I do check this in a draw board at full draw,
    Eye ball nock point and center shot
    After that I am just adjusting draw and Dloop for best feel on draw length.

    The one thing I tend to spend a bit of time on is weight distribution around my Stabilisers.

    Is there any magic dust technique that would make my bow shoot any better, I think it shoots about as good as it's going to get, but as you can see I don't really tune my bow at all??

  16. #16
    3rd Class Stats89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    I'll do some photos later. However one thing I noticed playing around yesterday was the direction the release hook worked made a big difference too.
    You have also previously proved that 500 spine, with the asymmetric nocks can hide the "X" also works very well

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    Just an observation here...

    The shooting results make no sense on the X-axis. No big surprise.

    Looking at the Y-axis though:

    .290 (210 grain)
    .290 (295 grain)
    Fletched
    .400
    .500

    I suspect that has more to do with the rest not being adjusted for different arrow diameters(?).

    I don't think that tuning is a waste of time. A better flying set of arrows will deviate further from their intended point across more conditions. I don't think it needs to be exhaustive though.

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    digitus impudicus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobmuley View Post

    I don't think that tuning is a waste of time. A better flying set of arrows will deviate further from their intended point across more conditions. I don't think it needs to be exhaustive though.
    Um... What?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy! View Post
    Um... What?
    Replace "better" with "poorer".

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    *****istrator Marcus's Avatar
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    Rest wasn't adjusted on purpose. Not the point of the test.


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